In Minneapolis, I see two sides that both want federal agents to get violent. Protesters are goading the agents, hoping they will lose it and act out. Agents are intimidating and provoking protesters, hoping one of them will make a slip that technically gives them permission to use deadly force. Both sides want violence; each is just hoping to pin blame for it on the other.
Alex Pretti is dead because both left and right wanted him dead. And as you note, it ultimately won't matter.
Film from a safe distance. Criticize agents but do not taunt them. The law says you are not allowed to interpose yourself between federal agents and someone they are engaging with. It doesn't matter if you're morally in the right and the agents are wrong. Don't do it. And for the fucking love of Christ, don't carry a firearm while you do it.
Oh, please. ICE has the guns, it has the pepper spray, it has the physical power. The protestors have smartphones and words. If ICE stayed professional, any goading would amount to nothing.
I don’t believe you. You think ICE/BP are courteous professionals who will give angry protesters the benefit of the doubt? You think Good and Pretti thought that? This is dangerous shit. You know it and so did they.
what the absolute fuck are you talking about??????
pretti and good had a belief that they weren’t going to die. There was no common sense reason they would believe they were engaging in dangerous activity. You can even hear Mrs. Good interacting sassily but not evil or threatening. They didn’t believe they would be killed because WHO DOES THAT
no law enforcement kills like that. Nobody. My friends work for Detroit Police Dept. and they have to answer for every bullet discharged from their guns, not to mention required investigations behind every shooting. There are several that haven’t fired in ages. IN DETROIT-doing drug busts! Get the absolute fuck out here! this is stupid ignorant shit that no law enforcement officer does.
You: “Neither Pretti nor Good had ANY CLUE they would be IN DANGER.” (Emphasis added.)
You here assert that neither Good nor Pretti (who most certainly knew of Good’s death) had any idea that federal agents in Minneapolis could be dangerous.
I don’t believe you. They knew they were in danger.
Why would they? No law enforcement officer kills people for those reasons. There are also other agents who haven’t killed anyone and presumably put up with similar situations.
It does not happen. Law enforcement officers don’t do this. No law enforcement that pretti and good had ever come across behaved this way. They were acting as if these officers were normal officers. They are not. They are not only poorly trained but have been immersed in the idea they can get away with whatever
I watched the videos carefully. I’m on your side politically. I’m not trying to justify the feds’ actions. Yes, Trump could end all this today by calling off ICE.
None of that matters. We don’t control what Trump does. We control what we do. We can end the killing by staying the fuck out of the way. I don’t care how righteous your death is, I don’t want it.
Your picture of this isn’t accurate. Neither Pretti nor Good were at a protest when they were shot. (I’m sure they had been in previous days or were perhaps planning to later)
Specifically speaking to Pretti — ICE rolled up into that space, not the other way around. Re: your “stay the fuck out of the way” line… he wasn’t in the way of anything, because nothing was happening until ICE approached, and it escalated quickly from there.
ICE is literally driving around picking fights with people. I’m in close touch with my friends and family in Minneapolis, and no matter who I speak to, there is one clear collective agitator.
Good was actively protesting, and actively obstructing law enforcement. Then she decided to play "chicken" with a cop. Using a 2000 pound vehicle.
Pretti... I dunno -- there were people standing in the street. That's a very minor bad thing, in my book (we have snow here, and not everyone shovels). An ICE cop pushes someone (not Pretti), who falls to the ground. I don't know if this was reasonable or not... Pretti appears to get between her and the cop, possibly to help her stand up.
Pretti passes the "good Samaritan bystander" check, in my book. "Is he behaving how we'd want someone to act, normally?" Yes, he seems to be. He's not helping a fleeing criminal escape (which would be bad, normally), or otherwise "interfering with cop business" other than just walking in front of the cop. Which happens, and the cop should use WORDS to get folks out of the way.
Dugan, the judge? She was smuggling an arraigned guy (so probable criminal) out the back. We'd never want a judge doing that, normally. Throw the book at her (which they did.)
ICE is literally driving into agitators' driveways, getting out and waving at them. The Agitators are then calling 911 (documented phone calls). I'd far rather ICE prank people than hurt them, wouldn't you?
2000lb car versus gun? Car wins. Car wins AGAIN. (Car with intact windshield beats pepper spray too).
To quote Torchwood: "You Are In A Car."
The protestors are picking up live ammunition and then wondering why they have suddenly lost a finger. And, afterwards, when they see the cameras on them, falling to the ground in hilarious pratfalls.
ICE is mooning the protestors out of their bedroom windows. You know, because you don't have to be professional while sleeping. Asking someone to behave professionally when they are under 24/7 assault with whistles is... asking an extraordinary amount of patience.
ICE is driving around traffic circles (over and over again, in a circle), and then playing "Turkey in the Straw" as they drive to the next traffic circle (to repeatedly circle while someone honks behind them). I fully support this level of non-violent protest of the protestors, it's kind of funny.
No claims that she was "trying" to hit the ICE agent, but definite claims that she spun out on the ice, and so trying to claim that the direction her tires were pointed is the direction she intended to go is a falsehood.
Most people do not intentionally commit murder, even when (to put ourselves into an extremist's mindset) they are stopping fascist police in a heroic fashion in front of her wife.
Shooting at the driver is still a stupid move, yes. it will always be a stupid move, even if the cop was trying to be a superhero and defend innocents with his gun (getting himself killed wouldn't have helped anything).
Stupidity is fixed with better training, or not letting the stupid into the position in the first place. Abuse of Power, Deliberate Murder and all the other "alarmist" reasons (okay, lies) for him to shoot... they're better treated with Consequences.
It would be hard to find a Red Guy (Republican) who doesn't believe that a cop who murders a human being (really, any human being) shouldn't get Consequences. Anyone who does actually believe that... shouldn't be anywhere near a voting box, let alone a gun.
It is easy to find a Blue Girl (AWFUL) who will say that "we must fight ICE." And, okay, that's generally not meant literally. But... people assume there are no consequences to impeding federal law enforcement. For The Love Of God, people, be prepared to get arrested! Do Not Resist Arrest!
... I used to think that words like these only needed to be said to black kids (who might be panicky in their first interaction with a cop). I was relieved to hear concerned black parents were going to schools to tell the kids how to not get shot by the cops.
You can analyze this all you want. Most of us saw a trained officer easily step out of the way of a car moving a few miles an hour at best, then aim at the driver from point-blank range and intentionally kill her. As others have pointed out, that's not how a cop should behave, and not how most of them would.
You're not a trained video analyst. You haven't looked at all the video, or you wouldn't have come to this conclusion.
"Most of us" is a naked ploy, saying that "everyone else believes" so I should too. I REFUSE to do so. I will stand alone if I have to, and say what I saw. I'm autistic that way, I'd rather tell the truth and be scorned, rather than bend to what "everyone else saw" in a single video clip.
The cop got clipped, without ice she'd have run him over, and he put the first shot through the windshield (which is not what happens from your account).
I've already posted documentation about this, from an expert witness (those are the fine chaps that show up in court. Have you been to court as an expert witness? Thought not).
It's an explanation as to why an officer would shoot a car, after the driver looks him dead in the eye and then guns the gas.
Was the officer unbelievably stupid? Yes. Gun doesn't stop a car, after all.
Car wins, this is just physics (car did not stop moving when Good was shot).
Renee Good died because she was doing something inadvisable and illegal (obstructing federal officers). Debatably, she was trying to avoid punishment for doing illegal actions (This is no longer "King's non-violent protests" -- people went to jail for sit-ins.) -- her wife screaming "Drive Baby Drive" is limited evidence for this...
“It's an explanation as to why an officer would shoot a car, after the driver looks him dead in the eye and then guns the gas.”
You’re channeling Bart Simpson’s civil testimony about Mr. Burns cackling with glee while ordering his limo to run him down. You’re about as convincing as Lionel Hutz.
I will cite trained video analysts who have looked at the officer's cellphone video. I've looked at the officer's cellphone video. it's pretty convincing that she does look at him. This says nothing about "did she really notice him" or anything like that. Just that there was a driver looking in front of her vehicle, which is what we'd expect to see from a driver, in reverse, about to shift gears and go forward.
Good and Pretti could have chosen to protest in ways that didn’t result in their death. They didn’t achieve anything remotely worth the cost of their lives by engaging agents closely. I don’t give a flying fuck whether the agents acted legally or not. They’re still dead, and we’re no closer to winning the Senate because of it.
I’ve seen the videos carefully, over and over. The protesters are trying to make the agents angry, trying to get them to do something violent. Being in the moral right doesn’t make this okay.
Anyone who can be incited to murder someone by being yelled at shouldn't be authorized to carry a weapon. If someone said mean things to you, do you think you have the right to murder them?
No kidding. I'm certain you're going to volunteer to take the guns away from our autistic soldiers. Please, go right ahead, they're right over there in the Special Forces Units.
(I think that people who are likely to not be their best self with excessive stimulation should not be hired as cops, obviously. Part of a cop's job is to deal with yelling people.)
So a protester says something that makes an ICE agent cross, and in response the agent physically attacks someone, and, in your mind, that's the protester causing the violence?
Look, from what I've seen of your comments you're a lot better than most of the right-wing commenters on this issue, whose view can be summed up as "ICE are innocent angels and their victims deserved death". But you're still skewing things in your preferred direction to a rather dramatic degree.
I want you to know I never believed them. It was just awful what they said. I know you really have a heat of gold and would never, ever harm a poor hamster, and especially not in… that way. That’s just an utterly false and disgusting accusation and I never for a second believed there was any possibility you actually did it.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that ICE acting like thugs is your preferred direction. It obviously isn't. And I fully get that, regardless of who is morally to blame for violence, acting in a way that aggravates armed people raises the risk of violence, and it's ridiculous to pretend otherwise.
Actually, I have zero argument with your previous comment other than what it's a reply to. In that context, it reads as suggesting that the people aggravating ICE are as responsible for the violence as the thugs carrying it out.
This is probably the whole thing where there's two concepts of "responsible" and they sometimes intersect awkwardly, isn't it?
This is what I told the judge when I stabbed my neighbour in the throat for playing music loudly after 9pm. He knew that made me angry and he did it anyway! And then when I started banging on his door he swore and me and called me a rude name. I mean what was I suppose to do? He should have known fbis was what would happen. Sure I may have been a bit out of line, but he could have chosen not to do that if he wanted to still be here today, so it was pretty silly of him to die like that over something so inconsequential.
Anyway, as you would expect, the charges were dropped because we were both at fault so we called it even. I guess the lesson here is that we all just have to turn the temperature down, although I personally don't regret anything and will readily do the same again if anyone else irritates me.
Yep. If you showed up at his house in a rage with a big ol’ knife in your hand and he came out on the patio and got into it with you, then he bears responsibility for his death just like you do. He was morally right, but he could have closed the door and called the cops. He was probably legally right, unless he was holding a knife, too. But if you’re acquitted, he’ll still be dead. And it was all about the fucking noise. Nice work, dude. Your widowed wife and orphaned children thank you.
Were this the case, Walz' caving on "we'll help you!" would not deescalate the matter. If there's violent cops who are frothing at the mouth to hurt people, you don't fix that by having the governmental film crew* leave Minneapolis.
The federal government backed off because they were getting hammered on the messaging. The "cooperation" with Minnesota officials is just face-saving for the administration. Interesting that you bought it.
Dipshits were also goading the Minneapolis Police Department during the 2020 George Floyd protests, and it didn't result in them killing two people in a month.
Why? Because (contra the ACAB crew) the MPD is a competent, disciplined police force. An objectively superior organization to ICE, who are a disgrace to anyone who ever put on a uniform.
I’m not embarrassed at all to argue that our people should stop dying. If you’re ready for armed insurrection, then fine; get your gun and go man the barricades. I’m not there. And nobody who isn’t there should be approaching federal agents with a gun on their hip, legal or not.
I agree that it was a mistake to bring a gun. To say “Alex Pretti is dead because both left and right wanted him dead” still demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of both why the agents are there and why residents are protesting against them.
I understand exactly why the agents are there. They’re there to kill protesters. I don’t want dead protesters. Explain to me why you do; I’m just not getting it.
That I’m saying I don’t want dead protesters and you respond by saying it’s ICE’s fault. I don’t care who gets the blame. I want our people to be safe. Do you want them to be safe? I haven’t seen you say it yet. This would be a good time to say it. I want the protesters safe and alive, not righteous and dead.
ICE is awful, dude! I’m not saying they’re blameless! I’m on your side! And I’m telling my side not to “mix it up” with deranged killers. Look at the video before Pretti was knocked down. On Saturday, I heard that he was just tending the wounded and got jumped. I thought he was blameless, like you apparently do. Then I watched the actual footage with an eye to really understanding the situation. He was willfully playing chicken with his life, with a gun on his hip, right after ICE had shown that they will kill if you give them the least excuse. He gave them an excuse. Then he died.
He died, Greg. He tried to be a hero, walking the line right up to the edge without giving the agents cause to attack him. He wasn’t calmly exercising his free speech rights. He was getting in the way. He was pushing the envelope. He was daring them to lose it. And then he reached for one of them, tried to pull one away from shoving someone. While wearing a gun, Greg! And then resisted when they threw him down, struggled, with a gun on his hip.
This man is dead! He took his little gun and went to play hero and died. Don’t be a hero, and don’t cheer anyone who tries to be. Will you endorse that? Will you agree that life is more important than political points?
Fuck ICE. Fuck them at the ballot box. Live to cast your vote.
I think this is really accurate. The sense I'm getting from the left over these two shootings isn't "this is tragic", but rather "finally!". In no way am I saying the victims are to blame for being shot, but there were so many steps both could have taken, any of which would have them alive right now. I think of it as "what would mum say?". Let there be a voice in your head yelling at you not to do stupid things (being legally allowed to do them isn't a helpful guide).
ICE have not acquitted themselves well, and yet at the same time, they face an impossible task. They are threatened with doxing and so they put on masks, that's not a good look. They are subjected to harassment and abuse, and so they're on a hair trigger. They should not be engaging with citizens, local law enforcement should be the buffer here, but instead they need to both secure a perimeter (something they clearly aren't sufficiently trained for) and actually arrest illegal immigrants. With lax recruiting, truncated training, and politicisation that ensures only a specific type of person will join, how can the results be anything other than tragic?
Not accurate. Perhaps Mrs Good had her car in the way and that was obnoxious to an officer. Mr Pretti just went over to pick a lady up. Bear in mind protesting tactics Mrs Good morning was moving her car.
No. I heard that, too: “Mr Pretti just went over to pick a lady up, and agents tackled him because he dared to help the poor woman.” All Saturday, that’s what I thought happened, just like you.
Then I looked for good video showing the initial interaction. Not the part where the shots are fired. Before that. Here’s what I saw:
Pretti has his arm around someone, helping her off the street. This looks like the person described in accounts of him helping someone who was pushed down or sprayed. While he is doing that, an agent to his right and slightly behind him gives another protester a huge shove. Pretti lets go of the person he was helping and turns toward the agent. He reaches his hand out toward the agent and moves toward the agent. The protester was shoved way, way back. Pretti is definitely not moving toward them. He is moving toward the agent, arm out, possibly touching the agent’s arm; it’s hard to tell. He is physically engaging with the agent. And he’s doing that while carrying a gun.
i don’t agree with this”view” of yours, but none of that is material. Law enforcement is not supposed to kill annoying and provocative and disruptive ppl. They aren’t even supposed to kill criminals or dangerous ppl. They are only supposed to kill if they or someone else is in imminent danger. That’s it. We are done here.
I can't believe this is an honest take. Renee Good was there for the specific purpose of obstructing and impeding law enforcement. She and her wife were there to be provocative. They succeeded beyond what they set out to do, but it's insane to try to frame this as her not deliberately putting herself into a heated conflict with armed law enforcement.
The same for Alex Pretti. He didn't just walk by and try to help a woman up who had fallen. He embroiled himself with law enforcement, and then got into a struggle with them.
None of this is to say that they should have been killed, but it is to say, they didn't need to be. Good could have not used her car to obstruct ICE. Pretti could have a) not gone to a protest armed, b) if he had, been vigilant to immediately comply with law enforcement, c) stayed out of the way of law enforcement while protesting. Just take reasonable precautions, be willing to be arrested, trust in the court system, and you almost certainly won't be shot by ICE.
Here is what i need you to recognize. Cops do not kill provocative and annoying people, and even ppl breaking laws. As a rule. Hell they don’t even kill provably dangerous ppl unless they are in danger of being killed in the moment. Nothing else-not obstruction, not what she said or did, not pretti carrying a gun on his person, matters. There is zero equivocating.
So I would like people to understand that they have control over their own fate. The people who were killed, could have easily not have been, through unilateral action. If you want to make it a moralising stance, where people should just do legal things, because they're legal (or even when not legal, they should just do them anyways, because they don't deserve to get shot for them), than people will die, and continue to die.
ICE needs to figure its shit out. It needs better training and tactics. It needs to recognise that minesottans will put themselves into positions where ice has to use force. They also need to recognise that the local law enforcement will not do their job. But they aren't the ones being killed, so the message is less urgent for them.
ICE has figured this shit out. They're doing what they're supposed to be doing, which is acting as a personal paramilitary group for Trump to terrorise political enemies, and they're doing it reasonably effectively. Killing innocent civilians is not a bug that needs to be fixed, or something that is an unavoidable last resort to defend their lives.
Nobody in ICE or in authority above them is expressing any remorse or even saying "whoospie" when they gun these people down. They brag about it and threaten other protestors with more of the same, and get enthusiastic praise and support from the White House and senior leaders for a job well done. This is what they're here to do, and they're going to continue doing it.
Stop with the blabbing. It is illegal for law enforcement to kill ppl unless they are endangered or someone else is. There is zero question about this. Leaving your house unlocked does not excuse a burglary. Being out in a dark area is not an excuse to get jumped. Crimes remain crimes and most ppl don’t expect to be killed as they don’t think they would kill anyone themselves. Feel free to philosophically reflect about what dangerous behavior is but it is a separate conversation from murder.
Gangnam Style is the gateway drug to watching hours of idols dancing to the point that you can recognize what song it is from the first few motions. We could all use a little more Kpop in our lives.
"No, it will take at least three weeks — and maybe up to a month — for me to forget about this entirely."
That seems pretty on par most everyday Americans. The Kent State shootings occurred on May 4, 1970. That November, the Democrats picked up a modest 12 seats in the House and lost one in the Senate. So I doubt the events in Minnesota are going to be the ones that causes the walls to start closing in on Trump.
If the State officials would honor detainers, the criminal aliens that ICE seeks to arrest would be quietly and peacefully transferred into ICE custody in the jails…but no- the idiot governor and mayor, for purely political reasons, refuse to honor detainers and release criminal aliens back into their citizen populations (which is incredible in and of itself) which forces ICE to retrieve them out in the community. The chaos in Minnesota is solely the fault of the governor, mayor, Omar and company. Sadly, they sow this division and expose their citizens to danger for purely their own self-aggrandizement
You're wrong. The responsibility lies with the people who pull the trigger and then lie about it. But it's definitely helpful for them to have useful idiots who believe them.
Resisting arrest is not comparable to being a battered spouse.
If you want to make a domestic comparison, the illegals are like people who snuck into a home and said "We're your spouses now, we have as much right to be here as you" and ICE is the citizens saying "the fuck you are, get the hell out of my house."
Nope, acting like ICE has no choice but to shoot people in the back because of something the governor said is very much a “if you didn’t dress that way and talk back, I wouldn’t have to do this” defense. This isn’t Captain Phillips.
He put himself in harms way. Protesting what? Removal of illegal criminals from the streets that the citizens’ own representatives thought should be put back into the community for absolutely no reason other than ideology. I don’t hear one word of sorrow or regret from any on these idiots about the thousands of victims that were preyed upon by illegal perpetrators of crimes or the ruination of their families’ lives. If that’s who the citizens of Minneapolis want, that’s what they should get-wait, they have. These so-called organic protesters have been the ignorant tools of nefarious movements since time began.
What I can see is A: Border Patrol should NOT be in these cities… of the two ( ICE being the other) Border Patrol agents have a rep of cruelty bigger than ICE… and they should be where they’re trained to be the Border. And B: ICE agents need more training… to be Un-masked… and wearing body cameras before they should be allowed anywhere. America conducts itself much better in foreign countries, fighting wars than they do in our own country… supposedly arresting criminal aliens. We respect our military… and people are protesting because nobody respects masked thugs who refuse to take responsibility for their actions and the straw men and women proping them up. Thanks, Lsismo
I don’t get it. Are you saying I should care what happens to someone who physically confronts active law enforcement while visibly armed? Is that that the joke? Because I do have to buy groceries and get my kids to practice after work. I don’t have time to look for cops to run over.
Hey you dingbat commie leftists. Protest to change the law if you don’t like the law. But impeding law enforcement deserves the risk of you getting shot you mf stupid dirt bags.
In Minneapolis, I see two sides that both want federal agents to get violent. Protesters are goading the agents, hoping they will lose it and act out. Agents are intimidating and provoking protesters, hoping one of them will make a slip that technically gives them permission to use deadly force. Both sides want violence; each is just hoping to pin blame for it on the other.
Alex Pretti is dead because both left and right wanted him dead. And as you note, it ultimately won't matter.
Film from a safe distance. Criticize agents but do not taunt them. The law says you are not allowed to interpose yourself between federal agents and someone they are engaging with. It doesn't matter if you're morally in the right and the agents are wrong. Don't do it. And for the fucking love of Christ, don't carry a firearm while you do it.
"Protesters are goading the agents ..."
Oh, please. ICE has the guns, it has the pepper spray, it has the physical power. The protestors have smartphones and words. If ICE stayed professional, any goading would amount to nothing.
This is not a "both sides" thing.
yeah no
you can tell that neither pretti or good had any clue they would be in any danger. Why would they?
I don’t believe you. You think ICE/BP are courteous professionals who will give angry protesters the benefit of the doubt? You think Good and Pretti thought that? This is dangerous shit. You know it and so did they.
what the absolute fuck are you talking about??????
pretti and good had a belief that they weren’t going to die. There was no common sense reason they would believe they were engaging in dangerous activity. You can even hear Mrs. Good interacting sassily but not evil or threatening. They didn’t believe they would be killed because WHO DOES THAT
no law enforcement kills like that. Nobody. My friends work for Detroit Police Dept. and they have to answer for every bullet discharged from their guns, not to mention required investigations behind every shooting. There are several that haven’t fired in ages. IN DETROIT-doing drug busts! Get the absolute fuck out here! this is stupid ignorant shit that no law enforcement officer does.
You: “Neither Pretti nor Good had ANY CLUE they would be IN DANGER.” (Emphasis added.)
You here assert that neither Good nor Pretti (who most certainly knew of Good’s death) had any idea that federal agents in Minneapolis could be dangerous.
I don’t believe you. They knew they were in danger.
Why would they? No law enforcement officer kills people for those reasons. There are also other agents who haven’t killed anyone and presumably put up with similar situations.
It does not happen. Law enforcement officers don’t do this. No law enforcement that pretti and good had ever come across behaved this way. They were acting as if these officers were normal officers. They are not. They are not only poorly trained but have been immersed in the idea they can get away with whatever
I watched the videos carefully. I’m on your side politically. I’m not trying to justify the feds’ actions. Yes, Trump could end all this today by calling off ICE.
None of that matters. We don’t control what Trump does. We control what we do. We can end the killing by staying the fuck out of the way. I don’t care how righteous your death is, I don’t want it.
Your picture of this isn’t accurate. Neither Pretti nor Good were at a protest when they were shot. (I’m sure they had been in previous days or were perhaps planning to later)
Specifically speaking to Pretti — ICE rolled up into that space, not the other way around. Re: your “stay the fuck out of the way” line… he wasn’t in the way of anything, because nothing was happening until ICE approached, and it escalated quickly from there.
ICE is literally driving around picking fights with people. I’m in close touch with my friends and family in Minneapolis, and no matter who I speak to, there is one clear collective agitator.
Good was actively protesting, and actively obstructing law enforcement. Then she decided to play "chicken" with a cop. Using a 2000 pound vehicle.
Pretti... I dunno -- there were people standing in the street. That's a very minor bad thing, in my book (we have snow here, and not everyone shovels). An ICE cop pushes someone (not Pretti), who falls to the ground. I don't know if this was reasonable or not... Pretti appears to get between her and the cop, possibly to help her stand up.
Pretti passes the "good Samaritan bystander" check, in my book. "Is he behaving how we'd want someone to act, normally?" Yes, he seems to be. He's not helping a fleeing criminal escape (which would be bad, normally), or otherwise "interfering with cop business" other than just walking in front of the cop. Which happens, and the cop should use WORDS to get folks out of the way.
Dugan, the judge? She was smuggling an arraigned guy (so probable criminal) out the back. We'd never want a judge doing that, normally. Throw the book at her (which they did.)
ICE is literally driving into agitators' driveways, getting out and waving at them. The Agitators are then calling 911 (documented phone calls). I'd far rather ICE prank people than hurt them, wouldn't you?
2000lb car versus gun? Car wins. Car wins AGAIN. (Car with intact windshield beats pepper spray too).
To quote Torchwood: "You Are In A Car."
The protestors are picking up live ammunition and then wondering why they have suddenly lost a finger. And, afterwards, when they see the cameras on them, falling to the ground in hilarious pratfalls.
ICE is mooning the protestors out of their bedroom windows. You know, because you don't have to be professional while sleeping. Asking someone to behave professionally when they are under 24/7 assault with whistles is... asking an extraordinary amount of patience.
ICE is driving around traffic circles (over and over again, in a circle), and then playing "Turkey in the Straw" as they drive to the next traffic circle (to repeatedly circle while someone honks behind them). I fully support this level of non-violent protest of the protestors, it's kind of funny.
"2000lb car versus gun? Car wins."
By now, if you still believe the lie that Renee Good was trying to hit an ICE agent, that's on you: https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000010631041/minneapolis-ice-shooting-video.html
This is an analysis from a trained video analyst (aka the expert witness in court):
https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/lets-talk-about-renee-good
No claims that she was "trying" to hit the ICE agent, but definite claims that she spun out on the ice, and so trying to claim that the direction her tires were pointed is the direction she intended to go is a falsehood.
Most people do not intentionally commit murder, even when (to put ourselves into an extremist's mindset) they are stopping fascist police in a heroic fashion in front of her wife.
'No claims that she was "trying" to hit the ICE agent, but definite claims that she spun out on the ice'
Sure, Jan.
And as a justification for the shooting, it still falls far short because even if it were true, shooting at the driver would still be a stupid move.
Shooting at the driver is still a stupid move, yes. it will always be a stupid move, even if the cop was trying to be a superhero and defend innocents with his gun (getting himself killed wouldn't have helped anything).
Stupidity is fixed with better training, or not letting the stupid into the position in the first place. Abuse of Power, Deliberate Murder and all the other "alarmist" reasons (okay, lies) for him to shoot... they're better treated with Consequences.
It would be hard to find a Red Guy (Republican) who doesn't believe that a cop who murders a human being (really, any human being) shouldn't get Consequences. Anyone who does actually believe that... shouldn't be anywhere near a voting box, let alone a gun.
It is easy to find a Blue Girl (AWFUL) who will say that "we must fight ICE." And, okay, that's generally not meant literally. But... people assume there are no consequences to impeding federal law enforcement. For The Love Of God, people, be prepared to get arrested! Do Not Resist Arrest!
... I used to think that words like these only needed to be said to black kids (who might be panicky in their first interaction with a cop). I was relieved to hear concerned black parents were going to schools to tell the kids how to not get shot by the cops.
White folks? you need this training too.
You can analyze this all you want. Most of us saw a trained officer easily step out of the way of a car moving a few miles an hour at best, then aim at the driver from point-blank range and intentionally kill her. As others have pointed out, that's not how a cop should behave, and not how most of them would.
You're not a trained video analyst. You haven't looked at all the video, or you wouldn't have come to this conclusion.
"Most of us" is a naked ploy, saying that "everyone else believes" so I should too. I REFUSE to do so. I will stand alone if I have to, and say what I saw. I'm autistic that way, I'd rather tell the truth and be scorned, rather than bend to what "everyone else saw" in a single video clip.
The cop got clipped, without ice she'd have run him over, and he put the first shot through the windshield (which is not what happens from your account).
I've already posted documentation about this, from an expert witness (those are the fine chaps that show up in court. Have you been to court as an expert witness? Thought not).
The car sure as hell didn’t win in this case. How the hell do you even type that when you know the outcome?
It's an explanation as to why an officer would shoot a car, after the driver looks him dead in the eye and then guns the gas.
Was the officer unbelievably stupid? Yes. Gun doesn't stop a car, after all.
Car wins, this is just physics (car did not stop moving when Good was shot).
Renee Good died because she was doing something inadvisable and illegal (obstructing federal officers). Debatably, she was trying to avoid punishment for doing illegal actions (This is no longer "King's non-violent protests" -- people went to jail for sit-ins.) -- her wife screaming "Drive Baby Drive" is limited evidence for this...
“It's an explanation as to why an officer would shoot a car, after the driver looks him dead in the eye and then guns the gas.”
You’re channeling Bart Simpson’s civil testimony about Mr. Burns cackling with glee while ordering his limo to run him down. You’re about as convincing as Lionel Hutz.
I will cite trained video analysts who have looked at the officer's cellphone video. I've looked at the officer's cellphone video. it's pretty convincing that she does look at him. This says nothing about "did she really notice him" or anything like that. Just that there was a driver looking in front of her vehicle, which is what we'd expect to see from a driver, in reverse, about to shift gears and go forward.
https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/lets-talk-about-renee-good/
This is a “both sides” thing. Absolutely.
Good and Pretti could have chosen to protest in ways that didn’t result in their death. They didn’t achieve anything remotely worth the cost of their lives by engaging agents closely. I don’t give a flying fuck whether the agents acted legally or not. They’re still dead, and we’re no closer to winning the Senate because of it.
You're mistaken. I live in Minnesota and there is only one side that's making things violent.
I’ve seen the videos carefully, over and over. The protesters are trying to make the agents angry, trying to get them to do something violent. Being in the moral right doesn’t make this okay.
Anyone who can be incited to murder someone by being yelled at shouldn't be authorized to carry a weapon. If someone said mean things to you, do you think you have the right to murder them?
No kidding. I'm certain you're going to volunteer to take the guns away from our autistic soldiers. Please, go right ahead, they're right over there in the Special Forces Units.
(I think that people who are likely to not be their best self with excessive stimulation should not be hired as cops, obviously. Part of a cop's job is to deal with yelling people.)
So a protester says something that makes an ICE agent cross, and in response the agent physically attacks someone, and, in your mind, that's the protester causing the violence?
Look, from what I've seen of your comments you're a lot better than most of the right-wing commenters on this issue, whose view can be summed up as "ICE are innocent angels and their victims deserved death". But you're still skewing things in your preferred direction to a rather dramatic degree.
This is not my preferred direction. Trump is a fascist. ICE is his gestapo. The protesters are morally right. I am on their side. This is my team.
My teammates are doing absolutely dumbass things and dying while accomplishing nothing. I want that to stop.
You and your idiot “team” are the new brown shirts. Or more like brown skirts.
Frankie! Oh, so good to see you, sweetie!
I want you to know I never believed them. It was just awful what they said. I know you really have a heat of gold and would never, ever harm a poor hamster, and especially not in… that way. That’s just an utterly false and disgusting accusation and I never for a second believed there was any possibility you actually did it.
I’ll always have you back, Boo. Kisses!
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that ICE acting like thugs is your preferred direction. It obviously isn't. And I fully get that, regardless of who is morally to blame for violence, acting in a way that aggravates armed people raises the risk of violence, and it's ridiculous to pretend otherwise.
Actually, I have zero argument with your previous comment other than what it's a reply to. In that context, it reads as suggesting that the people aggravating ICE are as responsible for the violence as the thugs carrying it out.
This is probably the whole thing where there's two concepts of "responsible" and they sometimes intersect awkwardly, isn't it?
Thanks. I appreciate that.
This is what I told the judge when I stabbed my neighbour in the throat for playing music loudly after 9pm. He knew that made me angry and he did it anyway! And then when I started banging on his door he swore and me and called me a rude name. I mean what was I suppose to do? He should have known fbis was what would happen. Sure I may have been a bit out of line, but he could have chosen not to do that if he wanted to still be here today, so it was pretty silly of him to die like that over something so inconsequential.
Anyway, as you would expect, the charges were dropped because we were both at fault so we called it even. I guess the lesson here is that we all just have to turn the temperature down, although I personally don't regret anything and will readily do the same again if anyone else irritates me.
Yep. If you showed up at his house in a rage with a big ol’ knife in your hand and he came out on the patio and got into it with you, then he bears responsibility for his death just like you do. He was morally right, but he could have closed the door and called the cops. He was probably legally right, unless he was holding a knife, too. But if you’re acquitted, he’ll still be dead. And it was all about the fucking noise. Nice work, dude. Your widowed wife and orphaned children thank you.
Glad to see you understand me now.
Were this the case, Walz' caving on "we'll help you!" would not deescalate the matter. If there's violent cops who are frothing at the mouth to hurt people, you don't fix that by having the governmental film crew* leave Minneapolis.
*Cow-boy Bovino gets a film crew.
The federal government backed off because they were getting hammered on the messaging. The "cooperation" with Minnesota officials is just face-saving for the administration. Interesting that you bought it.
The message about "backing off" is not the full story. Nobody leaned on Trump to "back off" -- people did lean on Walz to "back down."
Dipshits were also goading the Minneapolis Police Department during the 2020 George Floyd protests, and it didn't result in them killing two people in a month.
Why? Because (contra the ACAB crew) the MPD is a competent, disciplined police force. An objectively superior organization to ICE, who are a disgrace to anyone who ever put on a uniform.
Wow, if I were you I would be embarrassed to reveal this deep of a misunderstanding of the last two weeks!
I’m not embarrassed at all to argue that our people should stop dying. If you’re ready for armed insurrection, then fine; get your gun and go man the barricades. I’m not there. And nobody who isn’t there should be approaching federal agents with a gun on their hip, legal or not.
I agree that it was a mistake to bring a gun. To say “Alex Pretti is dead because both left and right wanted him dead” still demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of both why the agents are there and why residents are protesting against them.
I understand exactly why the agents are there. They’re there to kill protesters. I don’t want dead protesters. Explain to me why you do; I’m just not getting it.
Another bad faith argument. What about either of my comments implies I want dead protestors?
That I’m saying I don’t want dead protesters and you respond by saying it’s ICE’s fault. I don’t care who gets the blame. I want our people to be safe. Do you want them to be safe? I haven’t seen you say it yet. This would be a good time to say it. I want the protesters safe and alive, not righteous and dead.
ICE is awful, dude! I’m not saying they’re blameless! I’m on your side! And I’m telling my side not to “mix it up” with deranged killers. Look at the video before Pretti was knocked down. On Saturday, I heard that he was just tending the wounded and got jumped. I thought he was blameless, like you apparently do. Then I watched the actual footage with an eye to really understanding the situation. He was willfully playing chicken with his life, with a gun on his hip, right after ICE had shown that they will kill if you give them the least excuse. He gave them an excuse. Then he died.
He died, Greg. He tried to be a hero, walking the line right up to the edge without giving the agents cause to attack him. He wasn’t calmly exercising his free speech rights. He was getting in the way. He was pushing the envelope. He was daring them to lose it. And then he reached for one of them, tried to pull one away from shoving someone. While wearing a gun, Greg! And then resisted when they threw him down, struggled, with a gun on his hip.
This man is dead! He took his little gun and went to play hero and died. Don’t be a hero, and don’t cheer anyone who tries to be. Will you endorse that? Will you agree that life is more important than political points?
Fuck ICE. Fuck them at the ballot box. Live to cast your vote.
They attacked him before the gun ever became a factor
bOtH sIdEs
I think this is really accurate. The sense I'm getting from the left over these two shootings isn't "this is tragic", but rather "finally!". In no way am I saying the victims are to blame for being shot, but there were so many steps both could have taken, any of which would have them alive right now. I think of it as "what would mum say?". Let there be a voice in your head yelling at you not to do stupid things (being legally allowed to do them isn't a helpful guide).
ICE have not acquitted themselves well, and yet at the same time, they face an impossible task. They are threatened with doxing and so they put on masks, that's not a good look. They are subjected to harassment and abuse, and so they're on a hair trigger. They should not be engaging with citizens, local law enforcement should be the buffer here, but instead they need to both secure a perimeter (something they clearly aren't sufficiently trained for) and actually arrest illegal immigrants. With lax recruiting, truncated training, and politicisation that ensures only a specific type of person will join, how can the results be anything other than tragic?
Not accurate. Perhaps Mrs Good had her car in the way and that was obnoxious to an officer. Mr Pretti just went over to pick a lady up. Bear in mind protesting tactics Mrs Good morning was moving her car.
No. I heard that, too: “Mr Pretti just went over to pick a lady up, and agents tackled him because he dared to help the poor woman.” All Saturday, that’s what I thought happened, just like you.
Then I looked for good video showing the initial interaction. Not the part where the shots are fired. Before that. Here’s what I saw:
Pretti has his arm around someone, helping her off the street. This looks like the person described in accounts of him helping someone who was pushed down or sprayed. While he is doing that, an agent to his right and slightly behind him gives another protester a huge shove. Pretti lets go of the person he was helping and turns toward the agent. He reaches his hand out toward the agent and moves toward the agent. The protester was shoved way, way back. Pretti is definitely not moving toward them. He is moving toward the agent, arm out, possibly touching the agent’s arm; it’s hard to tell. He is physically engaging with the agent. And he’s doing that while carrying a gun.
i don’t agree with this”view” of yours, but none of that is material. Law enforcement is not supposed to kill annoying and provocative and disruptive ppl. They aren’t even supposed to kill criminals or dangerous ppl. They are only supposed to kill if they or someone else is in imminent danger. That’s it. We are done here.
Of course they aren’t, but they’re doing it anyway! Don’t go near them! Don’t die! Your life isn’t worth the video!
People are allowed to protest. Sorry.
I can't believe this is an honest take. Renee Good was there for the specific purpose of obstructing and impeding law enforcement. She and her wife were there to be provocative. They succeeded beyond what they set out to do, but it's insane to try to frame this as her not deliberately putting herself into a heated conflict with armed law enforcement.
The same for Alex Pretti. He didn't just walk by and try to help a woman up who had fallen. He embroiled himself with law enforcement, and then got into a struggle with them.
None of this is to say that they should have been killed, but it is to say, they didn't need to be. Good could have not used her car to obstruct ICE. Pretti could have a) not gone to a protest armed, b) if he had, been vigilant to immediately comply with law enforcement, c) stayed out of the way of law enforcement while protesting. Just take reasonable precautions, be willing to be arrested, trust in the court system, and you almost certainly won't be shot by ICE.
Here is what i need you to recognize. Cops do not kill provocative and annoying people, and even ppl breaking laws. As a rule. Hell they don’t even kill provably dangerous ppl unless they are in danger of being killed in the moment. Nothing else-not obstruction, not what she said or did, not pretti carrying a gun on his person, matters. There is zero equivocating.
So I would like people to understand that they have control over their own fate. The people who were killed, could have easily not have been, through unilateral action. If you want to make it a moralising stance, where people should just do legal things, because they're legal (or even when not legal, they should just do them anyways, because they don't deserve to get shot for them), than people will die, and continue to die.
ICE needs to figure its shit out. It needs better training and tactics. It needs to recognise that minesottans will put themselves into positions where ice has to use force. They also need to recognise that the local law enforcement will not do their job. But they aren't the ones being killed, so the message is less urgent for them.
ICE has figured this shit out. They're doing what they're supposed to be doing, which is acting as a personal paramilitary group for Trump to terrorise political enemies, and they're doing it reasonably effectively. Killing innocent civilians is not a bug that needs to be fixed, or something that is an unavoidable last resort to defend their lives.
Nobody in ICE or in authority above them is expressing any remorse or even saying "whoospie" when they gun these people down. They brag about it and threaten other protestors with more of the same, and get enthusiastic praise and support from the White House and senior leaders for a job well done. This is what they're here to do, and they're going to continue doing it.
Stop with the blabbing. It is illegal for law enforcement to kill ppl unless they are endangered or someone else is. There is zero question about this. Leaving your house unlocked does not excuse a burglary. Being out in a dark area is not an excuse to get jumped. Crimes remain crimes and most ppl don’t expect to be killed as they don’t think they would kill anyone themselves. Feel free to philosophically reflect about what dangerous behavior is but it is a separate conversation from murder.
Either side can end this. We only control our side. We should end it.
Gangnam Style is the gateway drug to watching hours of idols dancing to the point that you can recognize what song it is from the first few motions. We could all use a little more Kpop in our lives.
Too cynical, Jeff. The extremity of what's happening is really breaking through.
"No, it will take at least three weeks — and maybe up to a month — for me to forget about this entirely."
That seems pretty on par most everyday Americans. The Kent State shootings occurred on May 4, 1970. That November, the Democrats picked up a modest 12 seats in the House and lost one in the Senate. So I doubt the events in Minnesota are going to be the ones that causes the walls to start closing in on Trump.
If the State officials would honor detainers, the criminal aliens that ICE seeks to arrest would be quietly and peacefully transferred into ICE custody in the jails…but no- the idiot governor and mayor, for purely political reasons, refuse to honor detainers and release criminal aliens back into their citizen populations (which is incredible in and of itself) which forces ICE to retrieve them out in the community. The chaos in Minnesota is solely the fault of the governor, mayor, Omar and company. Sadly, they sow this division and expose their citizens to danger for purely their own self-aggrandizement
You're wrong. The responsibility lies with the people who pull the trigger and then lie about it. But it's definitely helpful for them to have useful idiots who believe them.
The old “why do you make me beat you, honey” defense. Not a great defense for spouse abusers and not a great defense here.
Resisting arrest is not comparable to being a battered spouse.
If you want to make a domestic comparison, the illegals are like people who snuck into a home and said "We're your spouses now, we have as much right to be here as you" and ICE is the citizens saying "the fuck you are, get the hell out of my house."
Nope, acting like ICE has no choice but to shoot people in the back because of something the governor said is very much a “if you didn’t dress that way and talk back, I wouldn’t have to do this” defense. This isn’t Captain Phillips.
Who is Captain Phillips, and who was shot in the back?
He put himself in harms way. Protesting what? Removal of illegal criminals from the streets that the citizens’ own representatives thought should be put back into the community for absolutely no reason other than ideology. I don’t hear one word of sorrow or regret from any on these idiots about the thousands of victims that were preyed upon by illegal perpetrators of crimes or the ruination of their families’ lives. If that’s who the citizens of Minneapolis want, that’s what they should get-wait, they have. These so-called organic protesters have been the ignorant tools of nefarious movements since time began.
What you're asking for is already happening.
https://mn.gov/doc/about/news/news-releases/#/detail/appId/1/id/719911
"Sadly, they sow this division and expose their citizens to danger for purely their own self-aggrandizement"
MN seems more unified than ever.
Sad but true.
What I can see is A: Border Patrol should NOT be in these cities… of the two ( ICE being the other) Border Patrol agents have a rep of cruelty bigger than ICE… and they should be where they’re trained to be the Border. And B: ICE agents need more training… to be Un-masked… and wearing body cameras before they should be allowed anywhere. America conducts itself much better in foreign countries, fighting wars than they do in our own country… supposedly arresting criminal aliens. We respect our military… and people are protesting because nobody respects masked thugs who refuse to take responsibility for their actions and the straw men and women proping them up. Thanks, Lsismo
I don’t get it. Are you saying I should care what happens to someone who physically confronts active law enforcement while visibly armed? Is that that the joke? Because I do have to buy groceries and get my kids to practice after work. I don’t have time to look for cops to run over.
Genius post!!
Awh… F*ck this.
Hey you dingbat commie leftists. Protest to change the law if you don’t like the law. But impeding law enforcement deserves the risk of you getting shot you mf stupid dirt bags.
👨🍳 😙