"I think my position on whether we should tax churches is “No, and we should also not tax any other organization — we should tax individuals.”
Love this and I agree. This would effectively eliminate the "charity" loophole that wealthy people use to avoid paying taxes. Wait... I think I just found that 6-7% we were missing.
Progressives and libertarians both want to maximize individual freedom.
Sometimes everybody cooperating to solve a common problem gives us more freedom than a knee jerk “no rules are allowed” response to reform. And sometimes “just leave people alone” grants more freedom than “let’s invent a new bureaucracy to chase diminishing returns” does.
And libertarians are fine with slavery so long as the starving worker signs a consent form first.
We can trade barely-informed accusations of ideological malfeasance all day. Fact is that the root of progressivism is not a tyrannical desire to dominate and control but a rational desire to liberate, growing as it does from the same root of liberalism that libertarianism does.
McJunker, this is a very interesting take. If what you are saying is true, and I am certainly not doubting you, then I think the overall optics on Progressivism (why does that look like a typo?) at least from this Libertarian's viewpoint, is 180 degrees different. Either I am misunderstanding the true meaning, or the message is misleading. Either way, if we truly are coming from the same place, then we have a common ground that can be built on. Unfortunately, the loud mouths on both sides would prefer to keep the divide just wide enough so that we can't hear one another. We get to rely on what they say the "the other side" stands for so that you and I can call each other idiots because we wear different colored jerseys. Articulating that common ground is the reason I read Jeff's substack regularly. That, and he is funny as f*ck.
They're both anti-carceral, but I'm struggling to think of even a second progressive policy that stands with the individual against government coercion.
There are people who treat yoga like a form of exercise that should be preformed “to the max” in a 100 degree room, and there are those who light incense and channel mother Gaia in downward dog. Then there are people like me who struggle with a chronically bad back and fairly constant anxiety who have discovered that yoga is about the only thing that can keep us relatively sane and pain free.
Ok, I can reluctantly accept your argument about taxing Churches, but no way in hell (sorry) should they have reserved parking spaces. That's a bridge too far.
The problem with "tax individuals, not organizations" is that the ultra rich end up getting little "income" but have their companies "invest" in a private jet for them and if they do need actual cash they borrow against their stock. So you get people buying private islands while paying relatively few taxes which pisses people off (I'm not happy about it).
Ah yes, the reverend Tilton. Brings back memories. Back about 1989 a job transfer put me in a new apartment, where the previous resident was apparently considered an easy mark by the religious money grabbers. My mailbox would be full of letters from different 'preachers' and Mr. Tilton figured prominently in the stack. His letters would show up 2-3 times a week with his picture, usually accompanied by his wife and progeny. Always begging for money to save my soul and enhance my (his) life.
Are we sure it's unpopular to tax churches? Every person I've ever talked to about this either thinks that we definitely should or is ambivalent on the point. Further, if a church or non-profit is sending all of their money right back out the door to support someone else, then they won't have that much in profit to tax. So it should only hit scumbags like these TV preachers who want to keep all the money that gets sent to them.
Wow. Every paragraph of this I was like yep, but even better would be... and then you'd talk about that thing in the next paragraph.
"I think my position on whether we should tax churches is “No, and we should also not tax any other organization — we should tax individuals.”
Love this and I agree. This would effectively eliminate the "charity" loophole that wealthy people use to avoid paying taxes. Wait... I think I just found that 6-7% we were missing.
Jeff, watch it. You're beginning to sound a bit libertarian here. You're going to lose your progressive credentials.
I’m an old school liberal, there’s a good amount of overlap between what I believe and what libertarians believe.
Progressives and libertarians both want to maximize individual freedom.
Sometimes everybody cooperating to solve a common problem gives us more freedom than a knee jerk “no rules are allowed” response to reform. And sometimes “just leave people alone” grants more freedom than “let’s invent a new bureaucracy to chase diminishing returns” does.
Well, except progressives don't want to leave me much money to be free with.
And libertarians are fine with slavery so long as the starving worker signs a consent form first.
We can trade barely-informed accusations of ideological malfeasance all day. Fact is that the root of progressivism is not a tyrannical desire to dominate and control but a rational desire to liberate, growing as it does from the same root of liberalism that libertarianism does.
McJunker, this is a very interesting take. If what you are saying is true, and I am certainly not doubting you, then I think the overall optics on Progressivism (why does that look like a typo?) at least from this Libertarian's viewpoint, is 180 degrees different. Either I am misunderstanding the true meaning, or the message is misleading. Either way, if we truly are coming from the same place, then we have a common ground that can be built on. Unfortunately, the loud mouths on both sides would prefer to keep the divide just wide enough so that we can't hear one another. We get to rely on what they say the "the other side" stands for so that you and I can call each other idiots because we wear different colored jerseys. Articulating that common ground is the reason I read Jeff's substack regularly. That, and he is funny as f*ck.
I'm with you except that in my experience, progressives want to liberate me from my money. Libertarians don't. Therein lies the distinction.
Libertarians want to make you free to be left alone. Progressives want to make you free from having to work to live.
They're both anti-carceral, but I'm struggling to think of even a second progressive policy that stands with the individual against government coercion.
There are people who treat yoga like a form of exercise that should be preformed “to the max” in a 100 degree room, and there are those who light incense and channel mother Gaia in downward dog. Then there are people like me who struggle with a chronically bad back and fairly constant anxiety who have discovered that yoga is about the only thing that can keep us relatively sane and pain free.
Terrific piece. Happy New Year.
I believe it was Plato who observed "That which can be taxed, will be taxed."
Here endeth the intellectual conversation about the relative merits of different taxation regimes.
Ok, I can reluctantly accept your argument about taxing Churches, but no way in hell (sorry) should they have reserved parking spaces. That's a bridge too far.
The problem with "tax individuals, not organizations" is that the ultra rich end up getting little "income" but have their companies "invest" in a private jet for them and if they do need actual cash they borrow against their stock. So you get people buying private islands while paying relatively few taxes which pisses people off (I'm not happy about it).
Ah yes, the reverend Tilton. Brings back memories. Back about 1989 a job transfer put me in a new apartment, where the previous resident was apparently considered an easy mark by the religious money grabbers. My mailbox would be full of letters from different 'preachers' and Mr. Tilton figured prominently in the stack. His letters would show up 2-3 times a week with his picture, usually accompanied by his wife and progeny. Always begging for money to save my soul and enhance my (his) life.
Does the Value Added Tax say
"hold my beer?"
I came here to say that. We will become Europe with high personal income taxes and a high VAT.
Yes, not ideal. I remember when Texas passed it's first sales tax law with the slogan
"it's only 1% and it will never go up!" Uh, nope, it went way up.....
European VATs are in the 25% - 30% range. And it isn't applied only at the point of sale.
Prices in Norway are hella expensive. Oslo is the most expensive city I have ever been in.
Politicians love it because it is largely unseen and it generates a ton of revenue.
Yes, I've heard of that!
It adds up!
Every point of transfer down the distribution track. Am I saying that right?
Is VAT applied to services?
Yep, all the way down the value chain. So parts would get taxes, and then the ultimate item is taxed.
Not sure about services, but I would assume so.
Love it.
Although, I notice that the option "cut 6-7% of spending" to make up for the lost corporate tax revenue wasn't even mentioned.
Oh, how far we've fallen.
Are we sure it's unpopular to tax churches? Every person I've ever talked to about this either thinks that we definitely should or is ambivalent on the point. Further, if a church or non-profit is sending all of their money right back out the door to support someone else, then they won't have that much in profit to tax. So it should only hit scumbags like these TV preachers who want to keep all the money that gets sent to them.